“Trevor:
I thought this rambling message more appropriate to send personally rather than to comment on the website. Please excuse its rambling nature.
As an Elder who has been a Pipe-carrier and Sun Dancer with the Lakota for over two decades, I have a few comments (well, more than a few): I too have been initiated into The Mankind Project; however, in this context, I found it inappropriate...it sounded like a pitch...I also found the use of "aho" as sounding like a group of non-Traditional men, condescending to Native Peoples. I too have studied in Peru and Bolivia. and am a chumpi paqo from the only two lineages left with the knowledges of how to use those particular muya kullas. I have spent time with the Q'ero in their tiny hamlets, in ceremonies, initiations, and empowerments. I find very little connection between men's groups (which I do find much value in) and shamanism. In fact, up on the Rosebud & Pine Ridge rez's, the word, "Shaman" is used in a pejorative manner. Shaman comes from the traditions of the Siberian and Mongolian Peoples (I'm glad that distinction was finally made). It is a word that white anthropologists have used in their misunderstandings of Lakota (and other Indigenous Nation's)Tradition, Ceremony, and Spirituality. If you want to reference Altered States of Consciousness, I think you could talk about Inipis, Sun Dances, and, especially, Yuwipis and Lowanpis (you did not address the use of Plant Teachers, either ayahuasca in the South or Peyote in the North). As to how "intimate" the show was, I think it was more an example of discomfort of men who weren't at ease with each other or the topic of "shamanism" in the loose, generic sense of the term. When someone mentioned some aspects of Tantra and shamanism, I would point to Bon (which is the indigenous, animistic, shamanic spirituality that pre-dates the arrival of Buddhism in Tibet) and particularly the practice of Chod. I know this sounds very critical but I do commend you for the topics that were attempted. I think it was unfortunate that no recognized healers (recognized not by whites but their own People, like Crow Dog, or any other Yuwipi men amongst the Lakota, or others from different American indigenous Nations) were present.. As far as communication with the Ancestors, I wonder why it was not mentioned in the connection with Andean cosmology, or ceremonies like, or similar to, the Lakota "Keeping of Relatives," one of the Lakota Seven Sacred Rites. The MKP says they use Lakota terminology but are very vague about who gave them permission from the Lakota, to use the sweat lodge in a Non-Lakota-like manner. Why they think that the Lakota build their lodges facing the East (which is generally, among the Lakota, related to the Heyoka, or Contraries. or the Thunder Beings). I also wonder why they use directional colors that are more often used among the Ojibway, When mkp does a ceremonial ritual to the four directions, they start in the East. I have spent time with many of the Lakota ol-timers (many of whom have now passed on - incidentally, the role of Psychopomp was not discussed), who used the same set of colors (not the MKP sequence used that supposedly correspond to the directions among most Lakota) and began all ceremony in the West. These questions are not directed so much at the gentleman who were nice enough to spend their time talking about some pretty important subjects, like mentorship but I wished they had had time to get more deeply into the subjects...perhaps spending some time in interpersonal group building prior to the show and getting more focused as to their own intent, would have been of value. Remember, as an Elder, I do enjoy the right to be grumpy...however, I do worry about Neo-shamanic practitioners talking about methodologies that were seen up until the past fifty years ago as having no value in Western Culture...as a further turn-off to Native People. As an official 'ol grouch," I do wonder why you had no Elders on yr show...how can you speak developmentally about ages that you have not experienced? When I was taught the Lakota sacred dialect by Pete Catches, Jr., we were taught that teachings (such that you attempted) should also be begun with a sacred song, much like Buddhists dedicating any merit to all those who are suffering). BTW, I am also a Winkte, a two-spirit person. Now THAT is a difficult area to address but your shying away from it (and only alluding to "sexual healing" had an air of evasiveness to it) - a sentence or two would have been sufficient. These are areas I mention as topics to be considered for any future shows. Again, I think it was intended to be good for people who have no idea of the topic matter. But, I'm guessing that newbies are not anymore clear than they were than before the show started. I would be glad to discuss any of these issues with any of you gentlemen, and feel free to email me
jcannon.kc@gmail.com
or look for John L Cannon on FB (from Kansas City). I do hope I offended no one. I should explain that, with age and poor health (chronic pain and several autoimmune disorders), I sometimes allow my thoughts to filter thru my body-in-pain/mind rather than my body/heart to Mind, and I do regret the critical tone of this comment. Please consider this as an unskilled attempt to further dialogue.
Mitakuye Oyasin,
John Cannon” –sent April 10, 2011 at 3:11pm
“Thanks, I just want to let you know I read this. I have no reply at this time other than to convey that I feel overwhelmed by your comments. In the future, I am open to criticism on the show but please ask permissions before you write me a lengthy e-mail.
We do the best with the show that we can and I would suggest that you keep that in mind while listening. Bottom line and my boundary is, that when you feel a need to be received in your "comments" to me, I need you to first ask if its your place to offer feedback. BTW the "I'm an elder" or "I know stuff" phrasing doesn't help me to believe in your words or training. Most of the elders that I know are humble and offering and in my first read of your note I didn't feel that from you. I will read it again in the morning and possibly email you with a more well contemplated response. P.S. my friends on the show have been to the MKP and I would recommend talking to them about their experiences, rather than me. I don't have an interest in MKP but if friends and people I trust have been and are better people because of it....let um say so. Their truth is simply their truth even if it sounds pitchy.
In' Lakech,
Trevahr” –Sent April 10, 2011 10:19pm
Our show that this dialogue is involved with is located on EntheoRadio.com and EntheoRadio.org entitled “Shamanism: a path from Boyhood to Sovereignty.” This episode originally aired live at 10:11am PDT, on April 10, 2011 and starred Thaddeus Wilson, Bradley Buffett, Jeremy Creager, and yours truly. Please feel free to offer your comments, honestly about the show and about the quoted criticism above by John L. Cannon.
Thank you,
Trevahr
http://wakingwithin.blogspot.com/
I thought this rambling message more appropriate to send personally rather than to comment on the website. Please excuse its rambling nature.
As an Elder who has been a Pipe-carrier and Sun Dancer with the Lakota for over two decades, I have a few comments (well, more than a few): I too have been initiated into The Mankind Project; however, in this context, I found it inappropriate...it sounded like a pitch...I also found the use of "aho" as sounding like a group of non-Traditional men, condescending to Native Peoples. I too have studied in Peru and Bolivia. and am a chumpi paqo from the only two lineages left with the knowledges of how to use those particular muya kullas. I have spent time with the Q'ero in their tiny hamlets, in ceremonies, initiations, and empowerments. I find very little connection between men's groups (which I do find much value in) and shamanism. In fact, up on the Rosebud & Pine Ridge rez's, the word, "Shaman" is used in a pejorative manner. Shaman comes from the traditions of the Siberian and Mongolian Peoples (I'm glad that distinction was finally made). It is a word that white anthropologists have used in their misunderstandings of Lakota (and other Indigenous Nation's)Tradition, Ceremony, and Spirituality. If you want to reference Altered States of Consciousness, I think you could talk about Inipis, Sun Dances, and, especially, Yuwipis and Lowanpis (you did not address the use of Plant Teachers, either ayahuasca in the South or Peyote in the North). As to how "intimate" the show was, I think it was more an example of discomfort of men who weren't at ease with each other or the topic of "shamanism" in the loose, generic sense of the term. When someone mentioned some aspects of Tantra and shamanism, I would point to Bon (which is the indigenous, animistic, shamanic spirituality that pre-dates the arrival of Buddhism in Tibet) and particularly the practice of Chod. I know this sounds very critical but I do commend you for the topics that were attempted. I think it was unfortunate that no recognized healers (recognized not by whites but their own People, like Crow Dog, or any other Yuwipi men amongst the Lakota, or others from different American indigenous Nations) were present.. As far as communication with the Ancestors, I wonder why it was not mentioned in the connection with Andean cosmology, or ceremonies like, or similar to, the Lakota "Keeping of Relatives," one of the Lakota Seven Sacred Rites. The MKP says they use Lakota terminology but are very vague about who gave them permission from the Lakota, to use the sweat lodge in a Non-Lakota-like manner. Why they think that the Lakota build their lodges facing the East (which is generally, among the Lakota, related to the Heyoka, or Contraries. or the Thunder Beings). I also wonder why they use directional colors that are more often used among the Ojibway, When mkp does a ceremonial ritual to the four directions, they start in the East. I have spent time with many of the Lakota ol-timers (many of whom have now passed on - incidentally, the role of Psychopomp was not discussed), who used the same set of colors (not the MKP sequence used that supposedly correspond to the directions among most Lakota) and began all ceremony in the West. These questions are not directed so much at the gentleman who were nice enough to spend their time talking about some pretty important subjects, like mentorship but I wished they had had time to get more deeply into the subjects...perhaps spending some time in interpersonal group building prior to the show and getting more focused as to their own intent, would have been of value. Remember, as an Elder, I do enjoy the right to be grumpy...however, I do worry about Neo-shamanic practitioners talking about methodologies that were seen up until the past fifty years ago as having no value in Western Culture...as a further turn-off to Native People. As an official 'ol grouch," I do wonder why you had no Elders on yr show...how can you speak developmentally about ages that you have not experienced? When I was taught the Lakota sacred dialect by Pete Catches, Jr., we were taught that teachings (such that you attempted) should also be begun with a sacred song, much like Buddhists dedicating any merit to all those who are suffering). BTW, I am also a Winkte, a two-spirit person. Now THAT is a difficult area to address but your shying away from it (and only alluding to "sexual healing" had an air of evasiveness to it) - a sentence or two would have been sufficient. These are areas I mention as topics to be considered for any future shows. Again, I think it was intended to be good for people who have no idea of the topic matter. But, I'm guessing that newbies are not anymore clear than they were than before the show started. I would be glad to discuss any of these issues with any of you gentlemen, and feel free to email me
jcannon.kc@gmail.com
or look for John L Cannon on FB (from Kansas City). I do hope I offended no one. I should explain that, with age and poor health (chronic pain and several autoimmune disorders), I sometimes allow my thoughts to filter thru my body-in-pain/mind rather than my body/heart to Mind, and I do regret the critical tone of this comment. Please consider this as an unskilled attempt to further dialogue.
Mitakuye Oyasin,
John Cannon” –sent April 10, 2011 at 3:11pm
“Thanks, I just want to let you know I read this. I have no reply at this time other than to convey that I feel overwhelmed by your comments. In the future, I am open to criticism on the show but please ask permissions before you write me a lengthy e-mail.
We do the best with the show that we can and I would suggest that you keep that in mind while listening. Bottom line and my boundary is, that when you feel a need to be received in your "comments" to me, I need you to first ask if its your place to offer feedback. BTW the "I'm an elder" or "I know stuff" phrasing doesn't help me to believe in your words or training. Most of the elders that I know are humble and offering and in my first read of your note I didn't feel that from you. I will read it again in the morning and possibly email you with a more well contemplated response. P.S. my friends on the show have been to the MKP and I would recommend talking to them about their experiences, rather than me. I don't have an interest in MKP but if friends and people I trust have been and are better people because of it....let um say so. Their truth is simply their truth even if it sounds pitchy.
In' Lakech,
Trevahr” –Sent April 10, 2011 10:19pm
Our show that this dialogue is involved with is located on EntheoRadio.com and EntheoRadio.org entitled “Shamanism: a path from Boyhood to Sovereignty.” This episode originally aired live at 10:11am PDT, on April 10, 2011 and starred Thaddeus Wilson, Bradley Buffett, Jeremy Creager, and yours truly. Please feel free to offer your comments, honestly about the show and about the quoted criticism above by John L. Cannon.
Thank you,
Trevahr
http://wakingwithin.blogspot.com/
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